A YouTube video of the event, which took place over Zoom on April 13. 2021.
Disabled writers, like their underrepresented peers, are often the only representatives of their community in a writers room, if they are in the room at all. This places immense pressure on them to both perform at the highest level and be an expert on their community. In addition to this added pressure, disabled writers are often pigeonholed into only writing about disability, even though they are often qualified and eager to write a wide array of storylines, just like their non-disabled peers.
This panel, in partnership with Inevitable Foundation and the WGAW’s Disabled Writers Committee, explores the experiences of disabled film and TV writers, from the challenges of navigating the entertainment industry with a disability to the role accessibility plays in their writing process. Hear a range of perspectives about the various barriers disabled writers face, and learn how non-disabled writers can make the storytelling process more hospitable and inclusive for disabled writers to thrive.
Panelists:
Jenn Lloyd - Writer/producer, The Barbarian and The Troll, K.C. Undercover, Shake It Up
Shani Am. Moore - Screenwriter (Sweet Magnolias, Staff Writer; The Bold Type, Story Editor)
Shoshannah Stern - Creator/Executive Producer, This Close; Actor, Grey’s Anatomy, Supernatural
Keisha Zollar - Creator/writer, Astronomy Club. Writer, Spitting Image, Sketchy Times with Lily Singh, Busy Tonight
Read the Transcript
Accessing the Industry_1
David Radcliffe: [00:00:00] I'm David Radcliffe. I'm the Chair of the Disabled Writers Committee at the Writers Guild of America West. I am a skinny white man in a long-sleeve blue shirt sitting near a lamp. You're here tonight to meet some writers and learn about the disabled writers breaking into a very challenging industry.
Tonight we're also here to celebrate a new scholarship from the Inevitable Foundation and to tell you more about it, I'd love to introduce you to the founders of the Inevitable Roundation, Richie Siegel and Marisa Torelli-Pedevska.
Richie Siegel: Everybody thank you for joining us tonight. I can see some other people just filtering in so we'll talk a little bit slowly but thank you for joining us tonight for Accessing the Industry: Engaging and Empowering Disabled Writers. My name is Richie Siegel. I'm a co-founder of Inevitable Foundation. I'm a white man with short brown hair and a brown beard wearing a dark red/purple sweatshirt.
Marisa: And I'm Marissa Torelli-Pedevska, co-founder of Inevitable Foundation. I am a white woman with long brown hair wearing an orange sweater. We're very excited to be hosting this event tonight with the Writers Guild Foundation and Disabled Writers Committee. Our conversation tonight will explore the experiences of disabled film and TV writers from the challenges of navigating the entertainment industry with a disability to the role accessibility plays in the writing process.
Richie: The disability representation gap in film and television is staggering. 20% of the population in the US has disabilities but less than 2% of characters on screen are disabled. Of the 2%, 95% are often played by able-bodied actors and less than 1% of writers in the writers rooms and in the Writers Guild are disabled.
Marisa: We started the Inevitable Foundation to fund the next generation of disabled screenwriters. We do this through our screenwriting fellowship which gives disabled screenwriters $25,000 in bespoke mentorship to advance their careers and their projects. Applications are now open and we encourage anyone to apply who is interested.
Richie: I want to thank Enid, Kat and Kira from the Writers Guild Foundation and David at the Disabled Writers Committee for being great partners in putting this event together and Jenn, Shani, Shoshannah and Keisha for joining us for what I know will be an engaging discussion. I'll let David take it away.
David: Thanks so much. I'm excited to talk with you all and to get to know all the other folks that are out there listening. The film and television industry is a challenging place to break in for anyone but I think we all know it's particularly challenging for folks with disabilities and other underrepresented groups. As Richie and Marissa mentioned, disability is amongst some of the least represented groups in television so we're excited to hear some stories about how we each broke in. Just as some context, I have cerebral palsy so best frame of reference for that is RJ Mitte on Breaking Bad. I use crutches and a wheelchair to get around. I'd like to turn it over to the panelists themselves, to give them a chance to introduce themselves and describe themselves to you and then we'll get started with some of the questions. Jenn, would you like to start?
[00:03:20] Jenn: Sure I'm Jenn Lloyd. I am a white woman with long blonde hair sitting in front of a wall of photos and I have a lip piercing. Some of my credits—I had just finished working on The Barbarian and the Troll for Nickelodeon and I'm a supervising producer. I also wrote on The Thundermans, Shake It Up and K.C. Undercover.
David: [00:03:41] Thanks. Shoshannah?
[00:03:47] Shoshannah: Hi, my name is Shoshannah Stern. I'm a white woman with long hair. I've got glasses on and I'm sitting in front of a wall with plates all over the wall. My most recent credit is I am EP and co-creator of a Sundance TV series called This Close.
David:Thank you. Keisha?
Keisha: [00:04:14] Hi, my name's Keisha Zollar. I'm BIPOC. I'm a Black woman. My pronouns are she/her. I have medium hair. It’s natural, in locks and I'm wearing a black and white shirt in my office. And—oh, credits. That's a thing. I'm writing currently on Young Love for HBO Max. I've also worked on Spitting Image and my own sketch comedy show called Astronomy Club on Netflix.
David: Thanks very much. And Shani?
Shani: [00:04:55] Hello, fabulous people. Thank ya’ll so much for being here today. I am the junior writer of the group. I am honestly jazzed just to be on a panel with these superstars so thank you all so much to the Inevitable Foundation, to the Writers Guild Foundation for having me. I am a tall Black woman with faux locks, a big brain and a fivehead to match. I am in front of a panel that my sister, who is a stylist, came up with. Anything that's stylish in our house is from my sister. My first credit is I was a staff writer on Sweet Magnolias and my second credit is I was a story editor on The Bold Type. You can catch them both streaming on Netflix and Hulu.
David: Terrific. Thanks. Thanks everybody. Excited to have you all here and also to see how many different levels of experience are represented and how many different backgrounds are represented is really exciting. One thing we all might remember, no matter our level of experience, is our breaking in moment even though in Hollywood, it feels like we're always rebricking in. So I'm curious from all of you, what's something that you wish you had known now that you're on the other side of that door, that door that everybody seems to want to get through? What do you wish you had known before you'd broken through that might be of help to some of our audience members today?
Shani: I'll jump in here since the breaking in is the earliest for me. Number one is the fellowships. The diversity fellowships are very helpful. I was so grateful to get both the Writers on the Verge fellowship through NBC and also the CBS Writers Mentoring Program. I was told that I couldn't do them both at the same time so I selected NBC because I used to be a production lawyer at NBC and it was a bit of a homecoming. The likelihood of getting into the fellowships is minuscule. When I got into Writers on the Verge, I was one of eight out of over 2,500 applicants. But as Elon Musk said, “When something is important enough, you do it even when the odds are not in your favor” and the application process is actually fun so you might as well do it. Kind of like for the Inevitable Foundation.
David: Thank you for that plug. Did you get the NBC and the CBS one around the same time and you had to choose?
Shani: Yes. I got them both at the same time and I had to choose. I was a production lawyer at NBC Universal which is why I decided to go back to NBC because it kind of felt full circle and it was a homecoming.
David: That's awesome. Anybody else want to share their breaking in story? I know some of these are complicated.
Keisha: [00:07:59] Mine is a complicated one. My first really big breaking in job was in late night, The Opposition with Jordan Klepper that was formerly on Comedy Central. I had actually just recovered from multiple surgeries and physically couldn't sit up at the point I started applying to it and so I was writing my applications from bed, still recovering. And it was interesting for me as someone who went through a very serious health scare. Long story short, I went septic, almost died. A month and a half later, I get this packet. I do it. I get through the first round and the second round, and then I get it. I’m still adjusting to sitting in a chair at the point I get it while I'm making jokes all day, because, you know, I'm a comedy writer. So that was a learning curve of being scared to ask for what I needed and what I wanted but also being like not sure how to sit for any extended period because my surgery scars were just so large. So that was definitely where my disability and breaking in came colliding.
David: [00:09:40] I want to make sure that we come back to this question of how to ask for what you need and want especially in light of the ADA which is celebrated in a film called Crip Camp. People should know more about the ADA and the legal protections that are offered but there is also that sort of personal challenge of when to and how to discuss what certain needs might be. and so I want to make sure that we come back to that. Does anyone else want to share their breaking in story before we move on?
Jenn: Sure. I could speak a little bit about that. I didn't come in through a fellowship or a writing program like this. I did the traditional PA, worked my way up, which was a really big struggle for me because I knew at the time that I was sick with something but doctors didn't know what. And so I think it made it really difficult, not just disclosing because I didn't know what I had to disclose. It was like, I don't know what the name for this is or what's happening or if I'm going to be alright. But I had a lot to prove that I was a hard worker and I could do 12 hour days, and I could carry TVs up the stairs with the guys and I could be at night PA if you needed me to and, and all these things that—I didn't know how to vocalize that maybe, can I handle phones for a little bit? I didn't know how to frame it so that I wasn't requesting days off and lots of things that I really probably needed at the time, but didn't know how to tell someone because no one in the medical field knew what to tell me about what was going on with my own body. So it was particularly difficult for me at that time, but I probably did a lot of—I mean, I definitely did a lot of damage to my spine at the time, which later caused me to have to have a spinal fusion. I just was not taking care of myself and that was a huge struggle. And at that point, I was a writer so then I was coming into the room in a big back brace and that was an entirely different struggle. But it's hard when you don't know what's happening and you're got a degenerative disorder. It's really hard to speak up for what your needs are at that time. So that was a really big struggle for me to break in.
David: [00:11:54] Shoshannah, do you want to finish off the breaking in the story?
Shoshannah: [00:12:02] Sure. My story is a little weird. I always wanted to write. Growing up, I've always wanted to be a writer but I had never heard of there being such a thing as a deaf writer when I was growing up and I could see on my TV some deaf actors. I did see that when I was growing up so my inspiration had started there. But it was a roundabout way of whenever I had got my first season role on Jericho and that was like 15 years ago—ten or 15 years ago. And they had called me into the writers room and I thought, “Finally.” And I had an interpreter at the time with me in the writers room. It's not really possible for somebody who applies for a writing position to just go in. A lot of times their favorite question is like, “Wait, you need an interpreter? Who's going to pay them?” And then it's like, we have to pay them as a deaf client? But because I had started as an actor on that show, I was lucky enough to convince them to change the role that I had auditioned for. Originally, it was supposed to be a hearing person's role and I convinced them to change it to a deaf person's role and they were willing to collaborate. They had called me in. They said, “What is your prior experience looking like?” So I sat and talked with them and told them stories all day and so then after that experience, I was like, that's what I want to do. I want to be a writer. I met another type of unicorn, another deaf writer. Their name is Josh Feldman and Josh and I decided that we wanted to create a show by ourselves. And then from there, we created our own writers room that way.
David: [00:13:48] And what sort of writers room were you able to shape, knowing the kinds of stories that you wanted to tell, the authority that you now had as a creator or a co-creator of a show? What did you want your writer's room to look like that might be a good model for other writers out there that are in higher positions of authority.
Shoshannah: I think the model is collaborative, to collaborate. Collaborate with every deaf person, every disabled person and each of those people have their own needs. One: it's not a one-size-fits-all. Accessibility has to have consent.You can't just say, this is the kind of accessibility that we're going to give you. Like I've heard some other deaf writers whom I've met, they say, “Yeah, they won't give me an interpreter. They're only giving me live captioning and that's it.” And that might work for one person who is deaf but it's not going to work for all deaf writers. So I think for everyone, the importance is to collaborate, be supportive and then the weird thing about accessibility is it really ends up benefiting everyone. Like captioning on TV. It benefits everyone. As a mother, I'm always thanking people in wheelchairs because then I can make it on the streets. I can walk on sidewalks with my stroller. I thank people who have wheelchairs for elevator access. And so again, people don't see what's not there and so you have to have conversations. You have to have those hard conversations. You have to advocate for yourself a lot. You have to convince people what you need and you can't question your value. You can’t.
[00:15:43] David: Well, let's lean into that area cause it's come up a few times now—the aspect of asking for what you need and how to get it and how to do it. Let's say, particularly if you're a comedy writer, you’ve got to try to do it in a funny way, right? And I think disabled people have to have a real built-in gift, both for problem solving, which is what we have to do all day because the world is not designed with us in mind, but also for presenting things in a digestible, fun way because we also feel like we have to put other folks at ease. So do any of you have a particular strategy around that? How to approach those sorts of topics, success stories in your career when you really felt like, not only you helped yourself, but you may have helped the next person to come along.
Shani: [00:16:34] I'll jump in first again on this one because I have the unique experience of being both a lawyer and a writer. In 2018, I actually became the first Black female head executive in Dolby's history and then in 2020, I quit to be a full-time screenwriter. So I had this unique experience of being at the top of the chain and the bottom of the chain at the same time. And what being at the top of the chain as a lawyer taught me is that because of the ADA—again, emphasize Crip Camp. It's brilliant, if y'all haven't seen it already. Because of the ADA, it's not something nice that employers are doing when they make accommodations for disabled people. It's the law. They have no choice and so I brought that into me when I go meet for writing. And then as a writer being at the very bottom of the totem pole, it never occurred to me to have my disability not be a selling point. I mean that's where all the juicy, good, funny stories are, right? So every time I go into a writers meeting with either a showrunner for a general or a specific, I lead with, “Hi, I'm Shani and the fact that I have multiple sclerosis is one of my greatest assets.”
David: And what's the reception to that in general? Do you feel like it takes a while to get people to reframe how they look at a condition like that or do you think they're immediately pretty receptive? Have you noticed a change in the way that people are more inclusive now?
Shani: I think we also have the benefit for writers' meetings in that they've read me before they meet me and in every single one of my projects, I highlight somebody with a disability. So the fact that I mention my disability as an asset and the fact that having a disability doesn't make somebody a liability—in fact, it's a badge of honor—when I say that, they get it because one of my characters probably said it first.
David: [00:18:52] I think that's great framing because stories of all sorts, if they’re any good, are looking for folks, looking for characters who deal with challenges, head on, know how to navigate complicated spaces interpersonally, solve problems. That's what all these heroes do so I'm frankly surprised we don't see more disability representation in that sense.
Shani: Preach I agree.
David: Anyone else have particular strategies for how they approach these tricky topics in the room?
Keisha: [00:19:25] Because of the nature of my disability, I come in pretty soon and I'm like, “Well, I'm going to make a poop joke eventually.”. I have ulcerative colitis and I had a total colectomy actually on my 17th birthday but that's another story. And I talk about all of my surgeries and I always tell people like, “I'm probably going to bring it up sometime soon.” Because I have a different relationship to bathrooms than a lot of people and to be very transparent about my need or to be like, “I gotta bounce cause I need to take care of myself.” I make sure I joke about it because people have various feelings around bodily fluids. My journey— it's like at one point I had an ostomy bag. I've had several complications due to my various surgeries and because it's non-visible and people aren't sure how to process it when they hear my stomach, potentially, at a writer's meeting, I try to make people aware. Plus, you google me, it's all up in there. It's like you google “Keisha Zollar illness,” hospitalizations come up. So I tell people it's like, I try to be visible and open because a) it's an asset but b) we don't think of the challenges someone with my unique disability might face in a writer's room because it is unique, like everyone else. There's not a one-size-fits-all, like Shoshannah was saying.
David: [00:21:20] Yeah. I had mentioned before the conversation we're having that I've met executives that have disabilities that they've chosen not to disclose but in one-on-one meetings with me, they might because they want to know whether they should. And my feeling is a lot of people don't have that choice in the first place but it would help bring a lot of these issues to light if more people came forward with what they're actually dealing with day-to-day and what their lives are like.
Keisha: [00:21:47] It's interesting you say that because I've heard so many people in those similar situations who I hear who are suffering. I look at the choice to take care of myself. I was in a meeting the other day. I told one of my collaborators: “I'm having an inflammatory situation. My eye is not going to work. We need to make some adjustments cause this eye isn't working.” I think, for me, I try to model “This is my body and this is what's happening for me” and I try not to bring that with shame to people—hopefully, to inspire them to be real with what's going on for them.
David: Anyone have any additional thoughts on that?
Jenn: [00:22:41] Sure. Yeah. I think for me, it was really hard to bring it up in a lot of rooms early on, just because—Well, first off, I have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, a hyper-mobility subtype, which, even going to a lot of doctors they'll go, “What is that?” So I don't readily expect that most people I go into a room are going to go, “Oh yes, of course, EDS, I get it.” So it often comes with a little bit more of an explanation but I've got a million funny stories about navigating the world with this stupid thing and it's so a part of me and I don't feel any less or ashamed. But I think definitely when I was starting out, I was like, oh, if I say this, are they going to go, “Well, that girl needs to leave often and go to the doctor and she's never going to be here and she's going to be a burden?” And I have worked so hard to go: “That's not me. Your preconceived notions are your preconceived notions and that's definitely not my life experience.” I have perfect attendance all in school. I always show up, I do the job. I'm that nerd. I'm very open about it and like you were saying David, I find that sometimes when I brought up this conversation, people have immediately warmed to it more than I could ever possibly imagined because they've gone, “Oh, I have something related” or “I have a seizure disorder” or “I have stuff. I have a mystery illness that nobody can figure out.” The times that it's been bad for me and this is few and far between but the times that it's been weird is when somebody goes, “Oh, well, have you tried this? Maybe you should take this.” And I go, “Yes, the entire team of doctors I have tried to put my body back together don't know what they're doing but you and your fish oil supplements—I’m a different woman.”
David: Rubbing Italian salad dressing on my legs. Finally. That was the one thing.
Jenn: Yeah. I get kind of used to it and I know that people, when they're saying that, by and large, it's just out of ignorance. It's not malice or that they don't feel for me in any way as a human being. It's mostly they have no frame of reference for what my body is doing. Ehlers-Danlos has been considered a rare disease which I think has really hurt a lot of people who have EDS just because doctors dismiss you and go, “It's rare. You can't have that. We don't know what's happening. Maybe you're a drug seeker. Maybe you're making this up. Maybe you have psychological issues.” So if I could stress anything, we're not rare and there's lots of us. And I think that if you know you have it and you have a voice and there's social media or if you're a writer, if you have any avenue to talk about what's happening, you could be helping yourself and others because it feels like lifting a giant weight off of myself to talk about it, that I'm not pretending to be something that I'm not and it could potentially be helping other people who were in the same situation which is more people than doctors think. So that's been my experience.
David: That's great.
Shani: And if I can just jump in here for a second—Jenn, you are speaking my language right now with EDS and MS and CP and all the other alphabet diseases. They actually used to call them orphans because no research went into them because people were like, oh, they're too rare, they're too rare. It doesn't make sense to study them. It doesn't make sense to study them. If you put all those orphans together, you have an orphanage. But you also have an opportunity to draw connections that you may not even realize were there.
Jenn: For sure.
David: [00:26:12] This is all great. I want to jump to the area of networking, specifically, and we can talk about this through a pre-COVID frame or a post-COVID frame. I've been to a lot of events that are dark and crowded and that's where people network and, and jam shoulders together and carry drinks and that's not really ideal for folks with mobility disabilities. So I'm curious about your own networking strategies and maybe how those have shifted for better or worse in the COVID life of virtual conversations like this. Does anyone have any networking tips to share for folks with disabilities?
Keisha: I network one-on-one. That's my vibe. When I want to meet someone, I try to network one-on-one also because I'm immunocompromised. So I see big gatherings and I'm like, okay, have I slept enough? How’s my immune system? Because those are considerations I have to make when I'm seeing large gatherings or crowds.
So I think pre and post COVID, I really like one-on-one time and I'm the person who will reach out to somebody and be like, “Hey, you're cool. I'm cool. Let's be cool.” So I think there's some value in really finding a really nice human point and a reason to connect. I recently connected with a friend who finished her last round of chemo and we were just dishing on stories about chemo and body and doctors and whatnot and we ended up writing a show together because of that. And so that's why I think for me it's the one-on-one and for a multitude of reasons why that's my strategy and talking to smaller groups because of my given circumstances.
David: Any other strategies for networking?
Jenn: Sure. Social media, social media, social media. I have very bad anxiety and worry about my pain levels when I'm out standing in a crowded place. Is there going to be a chair available for me to sit down? What if I faint? What if bad things happen? But the world has never been more available to you and you can connect with writers that inspire you, that you are interested in. One thing I've learned in this business is people love to talk about themselves. So if you open with questions about how'd you get your start, they will go on and on. Just come up with some good questions and you can form a good relationship that way. Going into those dark bars and crowded places is difficult for a lot of us. Thank goodness for social media.
Keisha: Co-sign the social media. One of my best friends I met through social media.
David: It's a tricky line to walk because we do talk about the ways that we would like to see networking events be more inclusive, for example, and that's such a big part of life in Los Angeles. At the same time, as those of us who have worked on set, who have, in Shoshannah's case co-created and and co-run a show, the actual work of the job is doable and so it's tricky to talk about cause we don't want to give people the sense that folks with disabilities can't do the work on set. But I am interested in touching on particular instances of good representation of allyship among your non-disabled peers, whether at your level or above or below. Working on a production, what does a good form of allyship look like so that folks know what to model if they're working with a talented disabled person?
Shani: [00:30:44] Yes, I will answer your question cause it's a great question but I also wanted to say something for the networking thing. Everybody who's here and, oh my gosh, there are over a hundred of us! Y'all are so smart because this is actually how I networked. I went to events that interested me and then people who were there, I was like, “Oh, we already have something in common.” So I see all y'all in the chat box saying like, “Oh, can we hook up afterwards?” Y'all are so smart because the horizontal networking is more important than the vertical networking. And Shoshannah, since you've actually created shows and have done so much in terms of networking, I would love to get your thoughts on the networking question too.
Shoshannah: [00:31:36] Yes. I think this really does go back to a lot of the great things that everyone does say about disclosing your disability. And I think it does have more to do with what's going to benefit you then what will benefit other people because then it forces you to connect with yourself and practice self-acceptance and then see yourself as a whole being, meaning seeing your strengths and seeing your weaknesses together. You can't separate those two things. But I think I wouldn't be able to do what I do if I wasn't deaf because being deaf really forces me to be vulnerable and I think that people respond to that vulnerability. I don't think that you can have a connection without vulnerability. And so then that concept of networking, that idea of networking, it bothers me a little bit because I think it's more related to connecting, more about connecting. You know like with dating, you really can't make someone like you. If you try to go on a date—I know because I've tried—but you really have to connect with people. You have to have that connection and it's hard when there are so many people and that's sometimes impossible for me. Like if I go to a bar—no way. I'll fail. It's dark. I can't read people's lips. There's no way. But it's more about quality rather than quantity. I feel fortunate that I've been able to get my stuff done and I think it is because of connecting, people connecting with me. And I have made myself vulnerable or they've been able to connect with the work that I've done. And so I think reframing that—like I used to be like, “Wait, I'm so sorry. I'm deaf. Hang on. I'm deaf. I'm sorry.” And now I don't say that anymore. I don't say that anymore. I say, “I'm deaf and thank you so much for your patience.” Instead of like—I don't apologize anymore. I’m not apologetic for that. And I will say, “Will you be needing an interpreter?” That's what I do ask. “I don't need one, but will you need one because I could type with you. I can write back and forth with you.” But I ask if you need an interpreter. That reframes things and I think that a lot of things have gotten so much better when I stopped fucking apologizing for who I am.
David: [00:34:10] That's awesome. It speaks to how contextual disability is which I think is really one of the awesome strengths of your show is showing a part of the world that already exists that a lot of hearing people haven't given enough thought to and that comes out of having more than one deaf character in the story and behind the scenes. I think one area which we might not get a lot of time to talk about tonight is the issue of tokenization which is like being the one person in the room that has to speak to XYZ and I think one of the strengths of this close and unfortunately one of the rare things about it, is that there's more than one disabled person navigating these stories. Anyone else have anything to add on in that area of networking? Okay. So we know that our conversation tonight is partly to celebrate the foundation or the scholarship from the Inevitable Foundation which is offering $25,000 to a fortunate, talented, disabled writer. I'm curious—especially with COVID, everybody's been hit so hard in the disability community—if you think back to the beginnings of your career, what would $25,000 have meant? What would it have opened up as an opportunity? What could it have helped you create? What would you have done if you had been a recipient of this kind of benefit? That's a jumping off question.
Jenn: I can answer it. It would have alleviated a lot of stress and anxiety in my life which exacerbated by condition at the time. I would have done the same thing coming up and being an assistant and working my way up but it would have taken a lot of the weight off my shoulders in terms of going all my money coming in is going back out to healthcare because I don't have health insurance as a production assistant. When you're on those low level jobs that are those break-in positions, you don't have the care that you need as a person who has the disability. Just looking at my MRI costs alone were staggering and I thought, “Do I keep pursuing my dream and maxing out my credit card or is this maybe not for me?” And I was like, goddamnit, yes. This is for me and I'm going to do this. This means that much to me. What else am I going to do? Just be in debt at home and do data entry? That's not my life. It's a shame to say that that would be put to medical costs because that's how this country operates. But I think it would have been a massive help just in terms of all the hours that I put into researching how to get the medical care I needed could have gone into writing my next script because that's where I wanted to put my time and my energy and instead I'm going, how do I get low cost health care, which is a hole that you're digging that never ends
David: Right. And even once you’ve joined the Writers Guild, you’ve got to keep re-upping to keep hold of that care.
Jenn: It's hard.
David: It’s challenging. Anybody else want to imagine what they would do with an extra $25k?
Keisha: [00:37:45] I would have enjoyed time because that was the thing that I didn't–much like Jenn, there were things I should have really taken care of for myself to prioritize my health, my wellbeing. Going to see all the doctors when I always felt like I was behind and trying to make rent and paychecks and to be able to breathe and have time which I think is the one resource that we can't get back. So to be able to translate that for time to create, to write I think is so valuable and something that's so special. Whoever receives it, take time, take just some time to let all the good ideas percolate, to let all the stories you want to do, to take the class, to take whatever you need to do with that money for you and celebrate it. Because that I think is what makes you an amazing artist, writer and a person with a story to share.
David: Before we— go ahead. Yes. Sorry.
Shani: [00:39:15] Since I'm still in the beginning of my career, I don't have to imagine very hard and I am going to take Keisha's advice if I win the scholarship because I actually did apply. If I win, I'm going to take time and appreciate it because, as you said at the beginning, David, in this industry, you are constantly trying to break. And I think that's one of the biggest adjustments from my corporate work to now is there's that stress of every single job, you're applying for another job and you're wondering, “Oh my gosh, is this my last job?”
David: Yeah.
Shani: So that stress got so bad for me that I had to actually create a mantra for myself, which was: “I already have my next job. I just don't know what it is yet. I already have my next job. I just don't know what it is yet.” And that helped me. And also, I don't know how many of y'all follow @LA_screenwriter on Twitter, but she tweeted out in January this super helpful chart. It's a three column chart and on the first column, I put the books that I read that month. The second column, I put the scripts that I read that week. And the third—days. I just check off the days that I wrote. And by looking at that, I'm able to hold myself accountable. I give myself that data and that helps alleviate some of the stress too because at least I know I'm controlling what I can control and I'm doing what I can. Oh, and the scholarship, the money, $25,000. I hope everybody on this call who's eligible also applies and if you get it, I will celebrate you and when we're both rich and famous, you can say, “I beat Shani for the Inevitable Foundation in 2021” or whatever.
David: Awesome. I want to make sure we have some time for Q&A from the audience. We have some questions here. What a good question up top from Shirley. What are the financial barriers to breaking into writing? We've touched on that a little bit just now. Including, she asks, if they're unpaid or don't provide health insurance, is that a problem? I'm sitting here as the chair of the Disabled Writers Committee. I don't know if I'll have health insurance in the near future through The Writer's Guild that I am currently celebrating. So I can collectively say I think health insurance is something that we're all interested in but you never want to just make that the motivating force behind a job but sometimes you’ve got to think about your health.
Question here from Alexis. Shoshannah, with dark bars and parties out of networking consideration, what kind of events or methods are ideal for a deaf or hard of hearing person? We touched on that a little bit but Shoshannah, if you want to add a little bit more context for deaf and hard of hearing folks in terms of networking, if you have anything to add to that area?
Shoshannah: [00:42:41] Sorry, I had a little bit of an internet glitch. I think we're fine now. Okay, I have to say that COVID was a blessing for me in that way. I mean, I am able to really network slash connect but I can really connect online and it's easier to get an interpreter as well. And then I had mentioned that a little bit before. I do go to social events without an interpreter and I do speak for myself but I have to then pick and choose what words I know how to pronounce so that I can use them. For me, in general meetings, I require a different type of environment and different resources than I would in a social situation. So for me, even when I went to a bar for a wrap party or whatever and I would meet someone there, in the back of my head I had this fear of like, okay, you're going to want to meet with me after this. And so then I would try to reach out to a friend and ask if maybe they could come interpret for me and then maybe I would buy them dinner that night and then after that, sometimes they want to meet again and then they want to meet again and then I'm like, oh my gosh and then that is the snowball effect. And then it turns out to be a really awkward conversation later if I really do need an interpreter. So if I would've gotten that $25,000, I would have paid my lovely friends who volunteer to interpret for me all those times. But for me during COVID, COVID has really taught me to reboot and to reset pretty much all that talk. Everything that I had said about reframing which is something that I have learned in the past years, I've really had to reframe because everybody is like, oh wow, everything's on the same level again and then all of a sudden things aren't accessible for anyone through COVID. And I think a lot of people now are realizing that, wow, large dark bars, full of a hundred people—do they really benefit anyone? I think that's probably something that we're all thinking. Probably not.
David: Bar owners. They benefit the bar owners.
Shoshannah: That is true.
David: [00:45:11] Great. Thank you.Another question from the Q&A box from Noah. How have you seen the industry change with COVID in terms of remote jobs and opportunities? We touched on that a little bit. Obviously COVID is a mixed blessing for the disabled community. We are among some of the most at-risk people on the planet as COVID spreads around the globe.
We have been written off in some ways from political policy but we also have access to forums like this. I met with an exec recently who said he thinks general meetings are going to be in this form for a while so that could be a plus. How do you successfully pitch a story featuring disabled characters to non-disabled executives and producers. Great question from Valerie. How do you successfully pitch those stories? In the writer's room or in a meeting for your own project.
Shoshannah: [00:46:18] I think the story needs to come first because being disabled is not a costume and it's not a plot point and really it's a life. It's a lifestyle. It's messy, it's complicated. Sometimes it's really hard. Sometimes it's really awesome. And so I think that the story needs to come first and then you can place the characters in it later.
Shani: Yeah, I completely agree because when it comes down to it, we're in the business of show business, right? The network execs, the studio execs, the prod-co execs. They really don't care about your story. They care about making money. And so what I would suggest is finding out what those little kernels and nuggets are in your personal life that you want to talk about and share those stories and sell those stories. I saw one question in the chat box from a lymed writer who said, “I don't want to write about my disability.” Then don’t write about your disability, mama. I am sure there is lots of other interesting stuff about you. The head of the CBS mentoring program is a woman named Carole Kirschner She's fabulous. She also runs the showrunners program through the WGA and she wrote a book called The Hollywood Game Plan and in the book, she helps you discover what those individual kernels are in your life that would be helpful to sell and share your story and I just put a link to her book in the chat box. I didn't write it. I'm not getting paid for it. It was helpful for me and so if it's helpful for y'all too, there it is.
David: [00:48:21] Great.Thank you. We have a question here. “I don't consider myself disabled—”This is from Anne. “I don't consider myself disabled although—”Wait, where did it go? The chat box just freaked out on me. It was essentially about resources. If you don't consider yourself disabled but you want to reach out to disabled folks to make sure that your stories are authentic, what's a good forum to do that? I would pitch the Disabled Writers Committee where a bunch of us gather frequently to discuss these kinds of issues but if anyone has any additional forums it’d be great for folks to know about?
Shani: I can jump in here. I loved taking classes because not only do you get the instruction from people who know but you also network and get to know other people. And Theresa—I just saw you comment in the chat box. I am such a huge fan of yours not only because you're an amazing writer, but because you are so supportive of the writers who are coming up under you. Oh, and also on that front, the Emmy—from my lawyer days, I'm a member of the Television Academy and the Television Academy has a young student program which is excellent. And also a lot of the committees, just like David is doing an amazing job heading up the Disabled Writers Committee, there's also a committee of Black writers that's headed up by Hilliard Guess, Michelle Amor, and Bianca Sams and all of our events are public too. So go to those events, learn, talk with people. And they’re all free, which—I don't know about y'all but free is my favorite flavor. It makes everything just a little bit better.
David: [00:50:24] And thank you all for being on this free panel for everybody too. It's a good resource right here. There's a question here from Mickey. “I applied for assistant jobs and got a few interviews. However, I needed to disclose that I have epilepsy and couldn't drive which was always met with, ‘Oh, well, this is what's needed for the job.’” The question here is pretty substantial, but that's the gist of it is how do you flip those conversations and still get the opportunity? I think that might resonate with a lot of us here. I certainly went for a lot of assistant jobs after film school and it was a tough climb. Any tips for Mickey?
Jenn: Sure. There are jobs that you can do on staff that aren't a night PA where you have to be driving around. I think, for me, I was not going to be a writer's assistant. I can't sit for a super long amount of time. I need to get up and that's not conducive to the process of writing to have the assistant going and stretching and doing all sorts of things. I was a fabulous producer's assistant though. I could assist an executive producer and that was my dream job for a while. I was perfect at it. Well, I think I was. No, it was a great entry-level position. I got really to know a lot of amazing writers and have a lot of good, great conversations with people who I admired and people who have become great allies and it didn't involve me doing things that I should not have been doing that were clearly damaging my body. So put yourself first and put your self-care first. Don't do something that—like you don't have to do that. It's a common way to get in and I think a lot of people have that misconception that you need to do this or it's not going to happen. We need to break that down. That is not necessary. You do not need to put yourself in harm’s way or endanger yourself to get a writing job. More and more wonderful foundations are springing up and wonderful ways that we can connect with each other. Write your material first and foremost. I will say that. I know a lot of people coming up are like, I need to get an agent first and that's going to solve my problems because they'll magically just place me on shows. That is not how it works. Write your stuff, write your stuff all the time, as much as humanly possible and if you've come up with something that's good, you can get it seen by people and get it in the right hands. If it's good, it will find a home and if it doesn't get made, you will find people who love and appreciate your writing style and your point of view and they'll want to work with you. I think any of these meetings that you're going to, one of the most helpful things that I was told by my manager now was that you're not just selling your projects. When you go into pitch, you are selling yourself and that is the most important thing because even if they don't want to buy what you came in there with, they might want to connect with you for something else because they like you and that is super, super important. Don't put yourself in harm's way, apply for all these wonderful programs that lots of networks and studios and foundations are doing right now. There are other ways to get your foot in that door. Just please don't get in the car. Don't lug heavy things. Don't do things that are going to put yourself in harm's way. That's it.
David: I would add to this—I think that's terrific and true and I would add that for those that are watching this who work in the D&I space, this is why it's important that disability be folded into conversations around D&I in addition to race, gender, sexuality, because the two pathways into television are very often being assistants or getting into a program and for a lot of us, the assistant work is a more challenging climb for reasons that Jenn just described, for a whole host of reasons. And I think that is reflected in the fact that the in Writers Guild currently, membership in the Writer's Guild—numbers show that only 0.7% of this massive Guild identifies as disabled which means there's a real bottleneck in the way that the D&I is approaching these issues. So hopefully we can look at this through all different sorts of lenses. I want to return really quickly to Shani because I have to ask her a question as an attorney that is on my mind. From the corporate side, when someone shows up for a job with a disability, no one's going to—and this is true for so many different forms of marginalization as well—no one's going to tell you why you may not have been selected for a job. But from a corporate side, what might be going through somebody's head when someone with a disability shows up for a project production job, a writing job, et cetera? Can you just kind of give us a ballpark idea so that we don't have to guess on the other side as often?
Shani: [00:55:34] And so I'm going to keep it real, right?
David: That's what we love about you.
Shani: Always, right? We're thinking, and I'm going to go as high as the board level, they're thinking: my responsibility is to the shareholders and my responsibility is to maximize profits for the company, which is why I am so glad there are companies like NBC Universal, where I used to work that recognize that when you make those reasonable accommodations as required by the law, you are maximizing your profits and returns for the people because hiring us is good business. Like listen to Jenn, all these things that she's saying: “I was perfect at this. I was perfect at this.” That is something that BIPOCs, that disabled people, that writers over 40, that we feel the need to over-perform because we know that the expectations are so low and so hire us. We'll make you money. And Natalie, I just saw your question. We would love to come speak at NBC Universal. That would be a dream. All these companies that are now reaching out to BIPOCs, to people with disabilities, et cetera, y’all are multi-billion dollar companies. Please recognize that when you ask us to come speak and share our knowledge, that's expertise that needs to be rewarded. We love the invitations, but please also pay us because we need the money and recognize that when we're sharing our time, that has a value. Going back to what everybody is saying on this panel, please see our value and compensate it.
David: [00:57:14] Whoo! How many people, how many folks on this panel in the past, let's say week, received a message from somebody asking if we could have our brain picked, probably for free on a disability subject? I will throw my name in the hat on that one. Thank you so much for mentioning that. Terrific. So does anybody have any words of insight or encouragement around coming out of this COVID haze that we're all in, hopefully soon, getting back into the world and getting to work on that next opportunity or project? Where should we be putting our focus or are we all just in a daze right now? It's alright if we're all feeling particularly low energy on our projects,
Shoshannah: [00:58:12] I do want to say—just because of the person who recently asked a question in the chat—there is a difference between responsibility, being responsible and giving someone a reason to not hire you and so don't do that to yourself. I think that that is fear talking and don't let fear speak louder than you can. Focus more on your value. Yes, your disability is part of your value. It does give you a different lens on the world and I think that that is what and why TV and film is so important. We have to be able to see the world through other people's eyes and then we have to be able to see ourselves on the screen. And so don't get in your own way. Focus more on: this is what I can do. List out things you can do and then after they hire you, you say, “Oh, by the way, I can’t drive”. Afterwards. But really, there are so many people that can drive. It doesn't have to be you. There are so many people that can do it so it doesn't have to be you. You get this. You got this.
David: [00:59:39] Before we go, I'm going to close with a quick question from Jeanie who asks a great question here. “How do we get executives and buyers on board with the importance of making shows about people with disabilities and that there's a need for it and they can benefit financially? I have been told many times it's a huge risk”—a huge risk? It's the largest underrepresented—anyway. “It's a huge risk and I don't understand it because the audience is there.” The audience is definitely there and it is proven by the fact that Run, which is currently on Hulu and stars a disabled actress in a wheelchair, is the most viewed thing on Hulu currently. So money's coming somewhere and it's a great film and actually cast authentically and disability is a central part of the story. So we need more examples like that and Crip Camp and stories that are authentically told from members of our community to show that the audience is there and the creativity is there too. Does anyone have any additional tips for Jeanie on, on selling the money message?
Keisha: [01:00:48] As soon as you said money, I always start with money being left on the table for—it's just a simple demographics thing. If you look at the disability community, it's rather large. And part of me is like: rather large? Untapped. I think there's money there. And I remind people it's like, people want to see themselves. People want to hear their stories or see their sister's story or their mama’s stories or their brother's stories, et cetera. So do you want to lose money or do you want to make money? And I try to frame it like, hey, I came here to make money with you and that's how I approach a lot of things. And people go, “I want to make money!” And I was like “Great! See? That was easy.”
[01:01:46] David: [01:01:46] What a coincidence. We want to make money. That's amazing. Alright. Great. Thanks everybody. Check out Run, Crip Camp, the Inevitable Foundation scholarship, any disabled stories that you can find. We are definitely underrepresented, underutilized but super talented. And I want to thank all of our incredibly talented and generous guests here today. Thank you so much. Come check us out at the Disabled Writers Committee to get more of your questions answered. Let's do a quick round robin and get everybody's social handles in case people want to follow you and learn more about you. Keisha. We'll start with you.
Keisha: On Instagram, it's @keishazollar. On Twitter, it's @keishaz.
David: Jenn?
Jenn: On Twitter, they can find me @JenneralMalaise but it's spelled with J as in Jenn. And on Instagram, they can find me at @jennmlloyd or they can follow my blog on Instagram which is @sickgirltravels about accessible travel
David: Shani?
Shani: Hi, I am @shani_am_mo and I just put it in the chat box, across all platforms—Clubhouse, Twitter, Instagram. And I'm a very late adopter to most social media so if everybody on this panel follows me, I’ll like double my followers. So thank you for that.
David: Alright. You heard her. Let's all follow Shani tonight. That sounds really creepy, but, yeah, we'll follow you. Shoshannah, where can people find you? Oh, I think your screen froze up a little bit or maybe mine did.
Shoshannah: I’m still here and I'm on Instagram and Twitter at Shoshannah—and don't forget the H at the end—@Shoshannah7. The number seven.
David: Awesome. And my name's David Radcliffe. I'm at Twitter at the same. There's no E on the end. Sometimes I accidentally get tweets intended for Harry Potter fandom communities. But it’s @DavidRadcliff. Aame on Instagram. So you can find me in either of those places. Thanks everybody for taking an interest in this topic. Good luck on your applications to the scholarship, and we'll see you soon. Thanks everyone.