Inevitable Foundation and the Nickelodeon Writer's Program are proud to present a conversation about closing the disability representation gap in Kids’ & Family television.
Speakers include:
Shaina Ghuraya (Writer/Director): Writing Apprentice for Boons and Curses at Netflix Animation
Jenn Lloyd (Writer/producer): The Barbarian and The Troll, K.C. Undercover, Shake It Up
Kari Kim: VP of Animation Development at Nick
Linda Halder: Sr. Manager of Live-Action at Nick
Moderated by David Radcliff (writer/disability leader) Co-Chair the Disabled Writers Committee at the WGA West, Waffles + Mochi, The Rookie
ASL interpretation and captions will be provided.
About Inevitable Foundation
Inevitable Foundation is a non-profit that’s funding and mentoring the next generation of disabled screenwriters. Their goal is to close the disability representation gap in film/TV: People with disabilities make up 20%+ of the population but represent only 2% of characters on screen and less than 1% of writers behind the screen. Screenwriters are uniquely positioned to embed authentic representation at a project’s inception.
Inevitable’s Screenwriting Fellowship gives disabled screenwriters $25,000 and bespoke mentorship to advance their careers and projects.
About Nickelodeon Writing Program
The Nickelodeon Writing Program offers diverse writers with underrepresented voices a paid opportunity to develop their craft and launch their careers as TV writers. While in the Program, writers hone their skills, build a professional network, and gain real-world experience in writers’ rooms for our critically acclaimed live-action and animated shows. Submissions open July 1st at www.nickwriting.com.
Read the Transcript
David: Hey everybody. Welcome to this great conversation. My name is David Radcliffe. I'm the chair of the Disabled Writers Committee at the Writers Guild of America West. I have cerebral palsy. I am a skinny white man, seated on a couch with long blonde hair or long brown hair, thanks to COVID. We're here to have a great conversation about kids’ television, animation, and disability and the intersections of those important areas of television.
First, I want to introduce Kate Blatchford from Nickelodeon who's going to tell you a little bit about an awesome writing opportunity. And thanks so much to Nickelodeon for co-sponsoring this event with the Inevitable Foundation. Kate, take it away.
Kate: Thanks, David. I'm Kate Blatchford. I'm a white woman with brown hair wearing a black blouse and some nice, nerdy thick frame glasses. I oversee the Nickelodeon Writing Program, which is a year long, full time, paid development program for television comedy writers with unique voices and from underrepresented communities. Our aim is to source, train and staff diverse creatives on Nickelodeon's live action and animated shows and beyond within the whole Viacom CBS family. We're also dedicated to a focus on intersectionality, looking not only at racial and ethnic diversity, but also ability, gender identity, sexual orientation and more. We open for submissions July 1st at www.nickwriting.com. You can apply to it for free online with a spec from our accepted shows list and a half-hour original comedy pilot. I am so excited to be working with the amazing Inevitable Foundation team to sponsor this event. So I'll pass it to Richie and Marisa.
Richie: Awesome. Thank you, Kate, for all of your work putting this together. My name is Richie Siegel. I'm a co-founder of Inevitable Foundation. I'm a white man with short brown hair and a brown beard wearing a dark gray shirt and a blue fleece. Really appreciate everyone joining us tonight and we are going to have a great discussion on closing the disability representation gap in kids’ and family television.
Marisa: And I'm Marisa Torelli-Pedevska, co-founder of Inevitable Foundation. I'm a white woman with long brown hair wearing a blue sweater. Thank you guys so much for being here tonight.
Richie: We're really excited to be hosting this event with the Nickelodeon Writers Program. Our conversation will explore the massive opportunity for increased disability representation in kids’ and family television, and the experiences of disabled writers working in the space.
Marisa: The disability representation gap in film and TV is staggering. 20% of the population in the US have disabilities but less than 2% of characters on screen are disabled. 95% of the 2% are played by able-bodied actors and less than 1% of writers in the writer's room are disabled. We started the Inevitable Foundation to fund the next generation of disabled screenwriters. We do this through our screenwriting fellowship which gives disabled screenwriters $25,000 in bespoke mentorship to advance their careers and their projects. Applications are currently open and we encourage anyone to apply who is interested.
Richie: Kids’ programming is a big focus for the foundation since the medium directly impacts an audience that's coming into this world with a blank slate of perspectives and narratives. This creates a prime opportunity to introduce an ingrained, authentic disability representation in viewers at a very young age. Doing so is essential for ensuring that disabled children see themselves on screen while also exposing the non-disabled kids to the disability experience. All of this has the power to prevent negative attitudes and stereotypes around disability from both disabled and non-disabled people.
Marisa: I want to thank Kate and the Nick team for helping put this event together and David, Jenn, Kari, Shaina, and Linda for joining us for what I know will be an engaging discussion. I'll now let David take it away.
David: [00:06:17]Thanks so much. For those that don't know, what you noticed at the top of our introductions is something called visual description which is for blind and low vision participants in the conversation so that they have a better sense of who we all are. So now we're going to ask that the panelists do the same. I'm going to give them a chance to introduce themselves, a little bit about their professional background and a visual description and then we'll jump into the conversation. We'll start with Jenn.
Jenn: Hi, I'm Jenn Lloyd and I have blonde hair. I’m a white woman with blonde hair. I also have a lip ring. I'm wearing a black shirt. I have written on a number of Nickelodeon and Disney Channel shows as well as some network programming. My kids’ and family experience is from Shake It Up, K.C. Undercover, The Barbarian and the Troll, most recently, and The Thundermans. Yeah, so pleasure to be here.
David: Thanks so much, Jenn. Now we'll jump over to Shaina to introduce herself.
Shaina: Hello everyone. My name is Shaina. I am an olive-skinned woman with black, long hair, a bright pink lipstick and a green blouse with a white wall behind me and also a bookshelf behind me. Hi everyone. I like to joke that I'm a triple threat. I'm Indian and I'm female and I have a disability. I'm a wheelchair user. I'm a writer-director, and I'm currently writing on Boons and Curses which is an upcoming animated series from Netflix.
David: Thank you so much, Shaina. Now we'll check in with Kari.
Kari: My name is Kari Kim. I am a multi-racial woman. I am Korean and Polish and Scottish. I have black hair and brown eyes. I'm wearing a black shirt and then a jacket on top with flowers and I'm sitting in my record room that you can't really see but I have a couch behind me and some artwork. I am the vice president of Nickelodeon development. My main focus is working in what we call the big kids arena, which is six to 11 and we do everything focused solely on animation. You're going to be meeting someone shortly that works in live action but I'm based at the Nickelodeon animation studio if we ever go back.
David: Thanks very much, Linda.
Linda: Hi, my name is Linda Halder. I am a chubby brown girl with long black hair and wearing a black and white striped dress, sitting in front of an Elvis movie poster and a Beach Party movie poster with me by the stairs. I am the senior manager for live action development for Nickelodeon and AwesomenessTV. I think I got that right. We just changed our department name, so combined Awesomeness Television and Nickelodeon. Like Kari said, I work on the live action stuff for kids six to 11 so that's your Henry Dangers, your Danger Forces, your The Barbarian and the Troll, those fun shows. Thank you for having me.
David: [00:09:31] Thanks for being here. We're going to jump right into questions. First, I'm going to validate why I am here in the children’s and children’s TV space. I wrote on a Netflix show called Waffles + Mochi which was a wonderful experience. We did also get an opportunity to thread some disability representation into that series. Really meant a lot to me. And this particular conversation around children’s TV and disability is, I feel, extra important because that's the age at which so many people formulate their feelings about each other and themselves and their place in the world so I think this is a really powerful area to explore. I'm curious, for each of you, how was disability depicted on television, in children's television during your formative years, if you can remember? Some early thoughts around disability, on TV?
Jenn: I can go ahead. Early on, I think that Sesame Street had a lot of great characters for little kids growing up and that was certainly important. There seemed to be a large gap in between that and dual programming where there's a total lapse and it became a lot of “on a very special episode” where it would feature one character who had a disability who would exist to make the other characters a better person, which is troubling. I think it has improved slowly over the years but it could definitely improve a whole heck of a lot more.
Shaina: Yeah. I can chime in for a minute. I remember growing up with TV shows where—and I'm about 25 years old, about to turn 26 so even when I was growing up, the only characters with disabilities that I saw on kids' shows were elderly and so it led to me really rejecting my disabled identity at an early age and trying to disguise the wheelchair even though that was not possible. There's no way I could disguise it but I tried and I got it in a hot pink so that people would think I was cool. And it wasn't until college that I really accepted my identities by myself and so now I'm here trying to make a difference in the media.
Linda: I can go next. I was thinking about this question and I was trying to prep for this and really think about when the last time I actually saw it growing up and it was really hard to pinpoint something. And the only one I can come up with—and I'm really sad to say—is Professor X from the X-Men cartoon, which—yes, let's 100% make sure that we're depicting more superheroes that are disabled. But it was just a glaring light that we need to do better. And I'm really excited that I get to be in a space and I get the opportunity to make a difference and make sure that we're putting kids on television that the audience can see themselves in so they can feel better about themselves and get a better understanding of the world around them or even if it's to escape from the craziness that is the world for a few minutes and it's a cool and exciting place to be.
Kari: I was the same as for Jenn, as well. Like Jenn and I had the same experience as I was like Sesame Street was really—and then there was this massive gap just in general and the same with the special episodes. I just was trying to—I grew up in the late eighties, nineties were really my formative time and there wasn't. There just wasn't. I trying to think. There was Life Goes On. There was just—it wasn't anything and I think that was across the board in any kind of representation so I think that's part of why I'm so passionate about it now, almost crazed in a very deep, loving way and determined, you know? And so I think I'm excited. This is an opportunity for us really to make a shift.
David: Yeah, for me it was definitely Professor X, funnily enough. It really expands the opportunities for various Halloween costumes when you have different characters you can pick from instead of having to be the same bald guy, the same white, bald guy every so often to represent disability. So for those of you that are on the writing side, what sort of strategies have you found are useful in the writers’ room if you wanted to present a disabled character, a disability related topic, maybe disability as metaphor? I'm curious about how do we take that lack of representation that we just recognized and thread it into a predominantly non-disabled community of decision-makers within Hollywood?
Kari: I can jump that in a little bit too. Authenticity is so key and really just trying to not just shove it in. It has to be really a clear arc and we'd love to not just be a one-off episode and really create characters that make an impact, that have representation. But also, we're really passionate about making sure we have authentic characters that we actually fully develop and so it's really interweaved and that we get consultants to really have that representation because not always will the writers’ room be able to represent that. So we bring people in to support, to make sure that we're telling the right stories authentically, it doesn't feel put put on.
Shaina: I think for those—Jennifer would you—
Jenn: No. Go ahead, please.
Shaina: [00:15:37] I think for those of us that are currently in the room, and there are a few of us, it's really our responsibility to kind of be loud. One of the things that I did, even at college, was I gave a presentation on how easy it was to hire actors with disabilities. First, you identify what disability the character has and then here are your resources because there are so many resources now. This isn't 20 years ago. We have KMR casting. Right now there are so many crew members with disabilities that are now coming up and being supported. So that's really what I try to do. I try to give people all the resources in one document and just show them how easy it is to have us on board.
Jenn: I agree with the being loud and also just being really forthcoming with my own life and talking about once somebody gets to know me what my whole life is like as a big picture they’re somewhat more welcoming to ideas that I pitch about characters with disability. And I think that when I pitch, it's also pitching a fully realized character as much as I can and not just going, “I want to do an episode about a girl who has invisible illness”. Because that's the first thing people hear and they’re gonna go, “I don't know. What's that about? How are we going to do it? Is this dating somebody and they feel bad about it?” No, no. It's not about the other person. This is the character. Here's a bunch of other things that have to do with this character and what they're like. This is just part of it. And it has gotten better with casting. I think a lot of the pushback—and I'm a little bit older than some of the other panelists—but I think that some of the pushback is: well, who are we going to get to play this person? And we realize in this day and age that it cannot be an able-bodied person that is portraying somebody that is disabled. However, I've heard many, many times—not so much lately but especially starting out and midway through my career—that it was, “Well, we can never find this person. Where are we going to find a blind teen actor? It's not going to happen.” It'll happen. And I think that problem is not just within the network and storytelling and with writers. That goes back to even when I was in school as a drama minor, the professor is telling you that you don't look like other actresses. There's nothing for you. Why would you choose this path in this career? You're not going to get cast in anything and the jobs aren't there. Thankfully, that's changing and I would hope that the storytellers—we start to embrace that these actors and actresses are out there and they're good. They're really good and we should find them and we should tell stories about them and we should make them main characters in these stories and not just somebody that comes on as a guest role.
Linda: Just to add on to what the panel has already said very eloquently, I think it's also about, at least from the development point of view and from the Nickelodeon side of things, it's about normalizing that character. And again, it's making sure that that character is a fully fledged, intersectional character that has wants and hopes and dreams in the same way that every other kid that we would show on Nickelodeon celebrating their childhood. Oftentimes people say, “Well, how am I supposed to get the spoonful of sugar in with the medicine? How am I supposed to be responsible and tell those stories?” And I always say it is about showing that as one aspect of that character instead of that being the hook of the show because you can get away with that on some other children's networks but you can't do that here. It is about celebrating that kid, making their differences their superpowers. It's not showing this is why it's so hard to be disabled. No, it's about, again, showing that is one aspect of that character and, sure, it's 100% going to affect their choices and decisions and abilities but we can still have fun and be silly and messy and irreverent and share those joys of what childhood is as well.
David: [00:19:51] I want to zero in really quickly on this spoonful of sugar idea because I think it's really significant within the entertainment space and the children's space and sometimes what you hear—and I know this now because of this role I have at the Guild—sometimes what you hear from executives is, “Well, we don't want to make kids sad.” Right? And so obviously, this is through the framing of non-disabled people because obviously there's a whole community of disabled kids and the parents of disabled kids and the friends of disabled kids who would love to see disabled representation. But how do we break through this idea that to have a disability is too sad for TV and too sad in particular for kids TV because I think it is a very pervasive myth.
Jenn: I think if you're not showing it, that implies it's sad. That's the problem. If you're not talking about it, it's something that shouldn't be talked about. So making a fully realized character that's not just like, oh, it's a girl who gets a date and she doesn't realize he was in a wheelchair when she signed up for the date—madcap hilarity ensues—which is a story that gets told over and over and over again. I think kids are smarter than we give them credit for sometimes and they figure out if something's BS and they figure out— they can grasp complex issues and they can grasp the complexity of somebody being a multi-layered individual with tons of facets to them. And when we push things away or we only have them on for brief moments, you're implying that their life is somehow sad and they have to overcome something to be normal which is really grossly unfair to not only kids that are born with a disability, but people who later in life become disabled, like myself. I didn't until my 20s start developing an illness that I went, “Oh, how do I tell people? What is my life now? Where do I fit in? What's going on?” And a lot of it is because I didn't see representation of someone like me. So I think talking about it is the first thing and it's not sad at all to me.
Kari: I so agree with what Linda and Jenn said. It’s like just because I have a disability doesn't mean I don’t still have the same emotional ranges that a kid goes through in relationships, in life and all the things that we face. And that's really important at Nickelodeon, having that kid’s POV in all the imperfect perfectness and the authentic kid. I know I keep bringing up that word but we want real kids and that's in all shapes and sizes and in the good, in the bad, in the lapse. And so we need to show kids that are represented in the world and show that. I just love that we have layers. Just because we have this disability, it doesn’t mean we go through different things. We just have different layers and different parts of us.
Linda: [00:22:57] I get so angry when people talk about it like things being too sad. Again, one, we do not give kids enough credit, Jenn, for sure. You are absolutely right. But two, it's not that weird to them. It's just not. There's this idea: how do we explain it to kids? No, we are the tourists. They are the natives. They are understanding this and seeing this all the time. We are the ones who are othering them.
David: Yeah.
Linda: And, again, they're so smart. They know better. It's not until we put those projections on it does it becomes sad. So, yeah, again, it is showing that intersectionality of that kid and authentic representative of our entire audience and they'll get it. They're smart.
David: I changed school districts between second and third grade and the teacher of the class that I was about to join had me come early to meet everybody before we started third grade, obviously, so that they could become comfortable with me being on crutches. And I think she was expecting the kids to ask, “Are you in pain? How do you walk around?” And it turned out that they all sat in a circle around me and, instead, they were asking questions like, “Do you read Calvin and Hobbes? What do you eat after school? Who's your best friend?” That sort of thing. And so it really was eye opening, I think, for everybody that kids don't—there's a sort of freedom about how kids explore the world and somehow, at some point in the journey to adulthood, I think because of a lot of media influence, that starts to fall away and we become afraid to ask and talk and inquire about things. Shaina, quickly, I wanted to jump back to something that you had mentioned about being loud, I think is what you said. And you're probably experiencing this at some level too, as someone that's just recently broken in, there is a certain sort of hierarchy within these creative spaces where you don't really have the ability to be loud, particularly if you're from an underrepresented group or a multiply-marginalized group. You don't really have that ability to be loud until you get midway up the ladder. So have you found within the creative spaces that you've worked with and folks from school or from work, particular strategies in being loud but still being effective?
Shaina: [00:25:24] Yeah. I think with my current position now on this show, it's unlike any situation I could have hoped for because it's such a safe space and there's so much support given to really allow us to say our truth and to live our truth which I wasn't expecting. I had a lot of nerves going in and I think what I didn't realize I needed when starting this position was extra support. As a person from an underrepresented background—again, triple minority—I've been through a lot of discrimination, like most of us here and so with that, I bring a lot of baggage. And what our showrunners did that first week was basically reiterate that everybody's opinion matters. Everybody's voice matters. And so within a week, my nerves were gone and really in all the rooms I've been in, even at school, I've never had my nerves dissipate that quickly. And so I'm really looking to them, moving forward, as to how I want to be a showrunner in the future. But usually, with how I navigate these situations with people who aren't as forthcoming and open to new ideas, is I make myself invaluable right at the start. I work as hard as I can, probably a little bit to the detriment of my own health, to the point where they accept me as who I am and they value me. And then I can get loud.
David: [00:27:03] Great. I'm curious also—a lot of folks may be coming to this conversation and don't know a lot about the difference between working in children's television versus working for the television that their parents watch exclusively or moving between animation and live action. Does anybody want to speak to, in case there are writers out here interested in getting into the animation space, what specific elements animation or kids’ TV looks for in a particular writer? Like when I worked on Waffles + Mochi, kids’ TV wasn't initially an area that I thought I would belong. I don't have kids, not that that's a prerequisite, but I found it was such a great space to really potentially make a difference and inform how people perceive the world. So what should somebody know if they're looking to a career in the kids’ and animation space?
Kari: Well, I think it's really important to really know character.I think that's a big, big thing because in animation you have to really work out the character and how it lives in the world and its relationship to other characters. I've worked in live action and animation and I love animation so, so much , because it's—live action is very collaborative but animation is really collaborative in so many ways because you really need to partner because the layers can change even in animatic and can alter and punch up and evolve. But we always ask, when you're coming up with a concept or if you want to work on a show, a lot of the questions we always ask is like, “Why is it animated? Why couldn't it be live action?” There is some amazing, special stuff that you can add and it doesn't mean we have to throw in a dragon. But there's a fantastical way that you can tell a story that really drives that character and really builds those relationships because you're not relying—yes, you have these VO casts but you're not relying on that actor to punch it up. In the live show, you're filming and that's not working out, you can do a live rewrite. It doesn't really work like that in animation. It has to be really fleshed out. And yes, you can do punch ups but the magic comes when you get into board after that script phase. So if you want to get into that, it crosses over. Everybody crosses over, live action to animation. I think it's really knowing character and in Nick's case, really knowing comedy. Comedy is really, really key for us with everything.
Linda: [00:29:50] Yeah. It's gotta be funny, first and foremost. I actually think that it's not so much different than adult television, really. I think you have certain guard rails that you can't cross as far as cursing and violence is concerned. Although, again, you can get away with it a lot more in animation or puppets, I've learned. Puppets you can also get away with.
Kari: Yeah! We love puppets.
Linda: I love the puppets.
David: Now I wish I could have gotten some swear words in on Waffles + Mochi but didn't happen.
Linda: Don't write down to kids. They're really smart and television has gotten so much better that they are looking for sophistication. They're looking for complex characters. So I would say you don't necessarily have to have a children's sample in your repertoire as long as you're funny. Because first and foremost, that is what Nickelodeon is and comedy does so well for kids television just across the gamut. Make sure that it's from the kid's point of view. Our leads are usually between the ages of 12 and 16 because our audience is like six to 11. Think about what you're like as a kid. What was important to you then? We oftentimes, in our general meetings, will do what we call the Nick therapy session which is where you talk about your childhood. We don't fix anything. We just laugh about it. But it's a great source of recognizing oh, okay, what was important to me then? It's friends and family. That's what's the most important to these these kids and these characters.
Kari: Yeah, and in animation, still the POV, from a kid's perspective, doesn't really change. Like SpongeBob is an adult, right? He is a sponge but his emotional arcs are really what kids go through. Like it's kind of a workplace comedy sitcom, right? He goes to get a job. He cooks crabby patties, his reactions, having a relationship with a boss AKA a teacher. That Patrick relationship is unbelievable and perfect and simple in a wonderful way. So really, for Nick, really having that kids POV that's relatable. They don't have to be. They can be adults but even the adults have reactions that are relatable to kids.
Jenn: [00:32:28] Nick is great, I have to say. Just what an absolute joy. And I’m not just begging for more work, but I love
David: I am, I am.
Jenn: I've had such a fantastic time on The Barbarian and The Troll and on any show, really, that has embraced jokes, just being super joke heavy and also coming at it from the point of view that writing something that kids and their parents will love. Because if you hook those parents, you will watch that show over and over and over again and the parents won't mind it. They won't hate it and they won't go, “Oh, is there something else you could be doing right now?” So we try to put in jokes that work on both levels for all ages so people enjoy it. You certainly don't talk down to kids. There are some things that are a little harder to get away with comedically, like the written word. If your joke is verbal and spelled out, often somebody has to say it because some of your audience doesn't read yet. So that's something to think about but these are minor things in the grand scheme of things. You're still telling a story and you're making it as funny as possible.
Shaina: [00:33:42] A guiding, short principle that I've been following is: would my seven-year-old self want to be friends with the main characters? Would I want to play with them on the playground?
Kari: No, that's so true. And it's interesting because we'll tell you—I'm going to give you some research secrets but we've been doing some research specifically on animation and it's been finding out that we test seven to 11 year olds and we've been doing these sessions and the 10 and 11 year olds are watching Riverdale and Stranger Things. That's the dirty secret and that's why we get these ratings back and you're like, Stranger Things is number one on kids six to 11. We're totally freaked out. But also in animation, they're going to Linda. They're doing the live action stuff. They're watching that tween stuff. But what's interesting out of all of that is that what we've been discovering and even in the shows that are getting picked up now, the comedy is really pushed. It is eight to 11. It’s co-viewing just like you guys are saying. It is borderline adult maturity level within the standards. But kids are so much smarter. And even what we're looking and discovering as Nick gets into the bridge space—I don't know if you guys have heard of this term before but it's basically the gap between two to five-year-olds, which is preschool and that four to seven, that four to six year olds. We call that bridge. It's the term. And they were discovering that, yes, the two to five year olds are kind of watching that. The comedy is pretty pushed but there's that social, emotional growth that we kind of have to have in every episode. I'm sure, David, you kind of had that with Waffles + Mochi,
David: Yeah.
Kari: And really that being clear so that there's a clear lesson, in a way, but it's not curriculum-based. So we're really folding in. It's actually now become three pockets because the kids that are nine to 11 or eight to 11 are so mature now that we've kind of had to now split us up and tell a series in a different way.
Linda: Adding slime also helps.
Kari: We're never also going to ever let go of bathroom jokes, just letting you know. No matter how mature they get, we need our bathroom jokes.
Linda: Farts are funny.
David: [00:36:19] I was working on Waffles + Mochi next to —everyday, I sat next to someone that had done a lot of kids’ TV. Her name's Anne Austen. Shout out to Anne. I learned so much from her and there were a lot of little tricks like that in terms of what children can process at different age levels. I remember one thing that I learned was we couldn't really do flashbacks on the show because understanding temporal relationships wasn't really something that, at the preschool level, which was technically what Waffles + Mochi was, it just wasn't something that could be processed. But in terms of story, you could give them pretty much anything so it was actually really more liberating than I thought it was going to be.
Kari: Yeah. And sarcasm is tough too. When is that lever? Although you're pushing it pretty hard but then there's always gotta be a little bit of a payoff. But you never know. A lot of this is workshop. Is that going to really work and hope that the kids will get that? Or how do we keep the sarcasm for the adults but then have it pay out with the kids? So there's that in between.
David: [00:37:51] I want to jump over—unless folks have more to add on that subject. I want to jump over to our Q&A box here, see if we've got some questions from the audience. Oh, this is a great one right off the top. How do you handle mental illness in children's TV shows as it can be a very heavy topic? Does anybody have any thoughts on that?
Linda: Whoo. That’s a good one. It's tough. It's really tough. I will be honest. Before working at Nick, I worked at Disney Channel for seven years so Jenn and I both have a vast history with, with kids’ and family television but there was a resistance to getting too dark. And so when we worked on Andi Mack, I think we ended up having a character that dealt with anxiety and I think, again, it's about normalizing it. I want to normalize therapy, kids that go to therapy. I want to normalize that it is everybody that has that and then seeking out the humor in that,because there is a lot of humor to be had in someone who suffers from mental illness as well. It can be funny. It can be very, very funny. So it's a slow progression but I think the more we talk about it, the more we do mention things like neurodiversity, the easier it will become.
Jenn: Yeah. I've worked on a few shows, Shake it Up and K.C. I know had episodes where we went to therapy and you had the therapy session and there was a big discussion about is this something that you should show for kids and is it too uncomfortable and is it too sad? And you as a writer, it's your job to make it not so sad, to make it something that's normal. Put in some jokes cause there is definitely—anybody that's ever grappled with depression, anxiety or any number of mental health issues has gone through some really some bad times and some super funny times. And you pick and choose what you show and make it so that kids would feel comfortable wanting to seek that help.I certainly wouldn't get mired down into medications or anything with such a heavy concept, but what you're supposed to do is go and first talk to someone and seek that help and you want kids to be comfortable in doing so.
Kari: [00:40:00] Yeah. It's interesting because we have a short that you guys will eventually see that's in production right now that sort of deals with mental illness and neurodiversity and unique ways through working out your issues or complex decisions that you have to make through imaginary friends and sometimes that can be good but then you want them to be authentically real. So it's a lot. We're being really sensitive about how we do that. It's really important to really talk about mental illness, I suppose, not surprisingly I'm sure, I have gotten an incredible amount of series pitches since we have gone under quarantine about anxiety. in credit. Like every once a week I get one and we have to answer that because that's real. We haven't found the right one yet but I think it's something we have to address because it's so deep. Even we're feeling that and so how do we address mental illness and specifically around anxiety and the world and the pressures of the world that are happening and so we're looking forward to finding the right one. Not giving up.
David: Yeah. There's been so much commentary and literature lately about the expansion of the disability community as a result of COVID, behaviorally and physically and in all other ways. So it'll be interesting to see if television can keep pace with a community that was already being underrepresented and now is just getting bigger. People are getting older and people have more needs and so hopefully television can keep up. Another question from the Q&A box: How do you speak up about—this is something I think we've all wrestled with in the creative space. How do you speak up about a storyline being poorly handled? They always say don't critique an idea unless you have a better idea to pitch. That's a good rule of thumb. All I want to say is whatever you do, don't do that is what this person writes. So let's say you're in a room and the idea is problematic or things are going sideways. Maybe you don't have a lot of influence in the room because you're still starting out and you want to hold onto your job. If you run into an area where you're like, whatever you do, don't do that, what's a good way to present that without being seen as a negative person?
Shaina: [00:42:36] From past experiences, there are a couple of ways. There are two ways, actually, I've handled it. One is if I do think I can reach out to the person who's in charge, then I will write an email and not call anybody out in the room. And so at school, write an email and have a separate conversation with that person and just not get loud, not get aggressive and just be very open, concise and to the point about what I'm trying to say and the difference that I think I could make. Now, if I think that the person is closed-minded and won't hear me, then I come up with a better idea, spend all night trying to come up with a better idea to pitch. And that's all I feel I can do but at least you've tried to do something at that point.
David: That's great. Anybody else have a thought on that?
Linda: Yeah, I would say I have sort of designated myself the diversity police on our team because there is so little representation of any sort of diversity on the team so I, sadly, am responsible for a lot of that. And so I think, one, be mindful of your own emotional tax. So you are not responsible for educating anybody. It is not your responsibility. You do not have to do that. It can be helpful but put your off your oxygen mask on first. So always remember your emotional tax. Two, I think coming at it from the understanding of, okay, if I'm going to educate this person, come at it in an open-minded way. This person is experiencing bias just like everybody does. How can I educate and do that? If that doesn't work, somebody gave me really good advice when I was working over at Disney in the diversity and inclusion program there when I was saying how I was having trouble raising my hand for these things. And she said, “Linda, they already think you're angry. They're already gonna think you're angry.” And so it did make me care a little less about white, male, cis, hetero comfort. It's not that important. I get not risking your job. I hear that and it's real and it's true. I would also recommend probably not calling them out in public but it's important. It is important. And I'm sorry that we have to do that. It sucks that we have to do that but it is important, especially in the job that we have because that communication is going out to millions of people.
Jenn: [00:45:33] Sorry, David.
David: Go ahead.
Jenn: There are just very few times also that I feel like the people above me in a room are doing something out of malice and it's mostly out of ignorance. And I know as a society, we're quick to go, “You don't know, your white male cis man. You don't experience any of these things and how dare you?” We get so angry and I'm not saying that's not what happens in my brain sometimes because it totally does but I try to understand that whoever's pitching this or wanting to tell this story is not doing it because they hate disabled people or they don't care. They don't know. And so, like I said, I try to approach the situation with tact. Sometimes you can throw as many lifeboats as you want and the person's not going to take it and you gotta know a line because we’ve all got to work and got to put food on the table. I know when to back off and go, “Well, I gave you every opportunity and you didn't take it.” But those opportunities are so few and far between these days, for me anyway, in a room. Usually people are, these days, more open and apt to listen. It doesn't always go the way, the ideal way I'd like it to go or I think it should go but usually they come around from the point of view that they originally held and go, “Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize.” And maybe I've been very lucky and the people that I work with that they're more open to listening to these things but I just try to be as tactful as possible and present a better alternative if I can.
Kari: [00:47:13] Totally. So I was just going to say, I agree with Jenn. Having that alternative, having the solution. And I think we just have to say, “It's not correct” I think we are empowered despite the terrible circumstances, the world is happening right now. We're empowered now. It's so fine and okay for us to say what we need to say and people are now, I'm hoping, willing to listen most of the time. And I totally agree. I think it's completely out of ignorance and generally we're like, “I gotta get this joke in” despite the joke is totally inappropriate and totally not correct and you're gonna offend 50 people. But when you say the joke is not is less important than getting this correct, I think generally that happens. But it's usually they're making the mistake of trying to nail that joke and like, wow, okay. You're right. But I completely agree with you, Jenn, But now we say, “It's not correct.” We have to speak up. But I do really feel like it’s, “It is not correct, but here's what you can do.” So you may know the problem but you always should have the solution or at least try your best to have a solution. It may not be the best one but always try your best to solve the problem.
David: [00:48:43] As a potential resource for folks, whether you're writing in the children's animated space or you're not, whether you're writing for adults or kids, there's a group that I, myself, am part of, full disclosure, called The Think Tank for Inclusion and Equity. We have a series of fact sheets that you can download, including a fact sheet about disabled characters and disabled tropes so that if you are in a writer's room and somebody floats a joke that’s not so great, you don't have to put it on your own shoulders to say why it's not so great. You can point to the fact sheet about disabled people and say, “Well, here's a trope that we're trying to avoid.” So, that's The Think Tank for Inclusion and Equity for anybody that wants to check that out and have some support in your arsenal there.I want to jump to a question. It says for Shaina and everyone. So be ready, Shaina. Can you share some things that leadership has done to help you feel supported? This is great, I think, for non-disabled people to hear so that we can find some allies. Best practices? And how leadership can create a safe space right from the beginning for disabled talent.
Shaina: [00:50:02] Yeah. So I love this question because it's really what I think needs to be happening everywhere. When you start a new job, the boss can always be like, “Yeah, let me know what you need.” Really quickly, one thing, you never hear it again because it's implied. And my boss could be the nicest person ever but as a person with a disability who needs accommodations, I would still feel scared to tell them what I needed. And I've even gone to job interviews where I'm like, “All I need is an accessible desk. That's it, nothing else.” And that's not true. It puts my own health at risk. So many of us try to hide the accommodations we need but what has been so great about the leadership on my team is that they have not only said tell us what you need on day one. They've said it in different ways throughout the week, throughout the first week and then they keep repeating it as we've gone on. And they even said, “What accommodations do you need?” I think also through Zoom or through Google Hangouts, we have the raise hand function which has led to a very respectful environment where we're all heard equally. And I feel like when we get back in person, there'll be something that we'll try to do that’s similar to make sure that everyone is being heard. But that's really been the main thing. I wish I could say that it's more than just saying, “What do you need? Let us know.” But it's as simple as that for me, honestly,
Kari: I just want to give a shout out. The person that asked that question is Jim Mortensen. He's the supervising producer of Big Nate and they're doing some amazing representation, characters that they're building out and we’ll be able to reveal when that show comes out and I love that Jim brought that up because he's a leader on that show. Shout out, Jim! Thank you.
David: Thank you, Jim. And thank you to everybody out there that's here who may not have a disability because one of my least favorite things in real life is moderating or speaking at disability events and then it's just all people that I already know and we were all just kind of breathing each other's air, saying things we already agree with. So thanks to everybody who's coming here to learn some things that they didn't know about the disability community. I want to ask a question here from an anonymous attendee. It says, do you consider disability when trying to diversify your writer's rooms? I think this is a particularly potent question because historically, a lot of writing programs and a lot of D&I efforts have not included disability but I do think we're seeing, in the past couple of years, a little bit more, conversation in that area and we're seeing it manifested on screen to it to a smaller degree. So does anybody want to speak to considering disability when diversifying a room?
Linda: [00:53:01] I certainly do. It's a thing we need to be better about, but when putting together suggestions for writers for my showrunners, I make it very clear that my lists are always going to be representative of America and if I notice like, “Hey, you're not meeting with blank writers”—because, again, I hate that answer of, “Well, they're just not out there” which, again, is total BS. Then that's my responsibility to be like, “No, actually, here. Look, this is a great list of amazing writers you should actually talk to and meet with.” I think it's also about considering different forms of experience. I think we need to start looking at experience differently because if you go through the one direction that most people have gone through for becoming a writer—starting as a PA, then going to becoming a writer's assistant, all that stuff— that's a very limited space and it's a space that has a system set up to keep people out of it. So we have to start thinking about experience differently. So different forms of experience with writing, if it's podcasting or whatever it may be. We do have to look at that as well. But yeah, I'm down for it.
David: [00:54:35] I want to jump to a really good question that I think is a question that comes up a lot from non-disabled folks and I think it's part of what makes people skittish to address these topics from the get-go. It says: is it problematic to write a protagonist with a disability, even if I am able-bodied or non-disabled but I have family who are disabled and have studied disability in college? Is it wrong to have that as a main characteristic, have disability as a main characteristic of what I write? I am trying to be a good ally but I don't want to step on toes.
Kari: I can touch this one because this is sensitive. This happens all the time. I can't give a perfect example specifically for disability but Craig of the Creek was created by two white guys and they filled the room with BIPOC writers and artists and I think that was a great success story. That doesn't always happen. But I think you are telling a personal story so I think if it's connected to you, your wife, your sibling, related to you, you can tell that. But I think when you do the room and the development happens or the development process happens, if you're in development, we'll do punch up rooms. We'll have participants. We'll bring people in to surround you that will be supportive, that are representative of a person with that disability. But I think it happens and I think we have to address it. We just have to surround you with people that are supportive of that and understand that and connect with that, whatever that disability is going to be.
Linda: I would say that it depends on the intent behind the person. So if it comes from a place of education, if it comes from a place of empathy then yes, 100%. If it comes from a need to try and give your character a personality by using that, then I would say definitely not.
David: I mean, my personality is cerebral palsy. I say that often.
Linda: Again, I've seen it a lot when you have white male writers make their character female to try and just shake things up and think that they have that point of view.
Kari: Let’s be real. Linda and I would not pick that up. That's the truth. So that wouldn't even go into development.
Linda: Not if I have anything to say about it.
Kari: Yes. That's true. Good call.
Linda: I am still very much one of the low rungs on the ladder. But I think it comes down to intention. If you're doing it from a place of empathy, if you're then getting a friend or someone to have a read through it and consult on it as well, please do just to make sure that you're trying to be as authentic as possible. Because, again, it's about authenticity as opposed to cheating and trying to give a character personality instead of giving them a disability instead of a personality
Jenn: And pay the person you consult with, please.
Linda: Yes.
David: Oh yeah.
Jenn: I don’t want to read your script about your mother with chronic fatigue and get no money for it.
Shaina: And, again, just to provide an easy organization that you can literally go out to right now, RespectAbility. Great organization that you can get consulting done from.
David: Great. Any other thoughts on that?
Jenn: [00:58:36] Yeah, I’d just like to add one thing. I think it depends on the perspective. If your character is someone who's growing up and whose mother is disabled, then you have a very authentic place to draw from but like everyone else has said, I would hope and expect that you would include people in that writer's room who are disabled and understand where that character would come from so you have both points of view looking at it.
David: I would add, to me, the consulting thing is a little bit tricky because I've consulted, not in the animation or kids space, but I've consulted on live-action adult shows and you're not getting paid as a writer and you're often brought in very late in the process so you ha you can't really change what's already—you can’t fix the cake that's already been baked, in a sense. But it does give the project license to be able to say, “Well, we did talk to a disabled person.” So I would just be careful about that because at what point you're brought into the process kind of informs what ability you're going to have to shape anything that might be problematic. I've found that personally. Truthfully, I think if you can bring in writers with disabilities to team with non-disabled writers or disabled writers themselves to launch projects, we just have to get more people in the door who are treated as the writers that we are, who are treated as the professionals we are. My initial thought about the question was if we wait for only disabled people to write disabled characters, we're going to be waiting another 10 years before we get two dozen disabled writers in positions of authority so there has to be some allyship but it is sort of a tricky relationship sometimes. Oh man, we're near the end of the hour. I feel like this really flew by. Maybe I'm only speaking for myself but that really flew. Does anyone have any final thoughts about what folks without disabilities who are in a position of authority or who are hiring creative talent in rooms, what they should know about working with disabled people and the value that we bring?
Shaina: [01:00:59] Don't be awkward about it. It’s happened to me a couple times in the past where people treat you with kid gloves. We're people. We're three-dimensional.
David: I don't mean to put you on the spot, Shaina, but do you want to give an example of something that, without naming names, but something that someone shouldn't be doing?
Shaina: I had one boss who apologized for saying, “Can you stand for the pledge of allegiance?” So that was a weird situation in general but, again, the ones who were overly—and just made everything weird whenever they would say the word “stand” or give an example about walking, they’d be like “Oh, I'm so sorry.”
David: Anybody else want to add to that question?
Jenn: It's hard because we all have different—it's such a wide variety of disabilities that you could be talking about. I try not to make too many assumptions. Like we're all in a room together. We'll all get to know each other and I feel comfortable disclosing my needs. I would hope that somebody would ask though because it sort of is uncomfortable if you keep coming back and going, “Hey, I've got this thing.” But you shouldn't assume that I'm going to come in with a ton of baggage and that I'm going to go, “I need days off and I've got to go do this and I've got to do that.” I wouldn't be putting myself out there and going for these jobs and I wouldn't have a whole resume of experience if I couldn't handle doing this job and if I didn't do it well. I would back down in a heartbeat if I knew I couldn't handle it. And as somebody with a very painful chronic illness, it affects me but I’ve done a lot of work on staying mindful and staying in the space and doing my job in the best way possible and I would hate to think that anybody would see me and my disability as a liability and as somebody who's not capable of being depended upon and who's not going to bring great stories and jokes to a room. So I just ask that anybody that's hiring in a room, keep an open mind and try not to come into it projecting too many things of what I'm going to be before I even show up.
David: [01:03:40] Yeah and recognize how much of that is already fed by the media. So it's like they're making decisions based on media that they have consumed that doesn't include disabled people in it or wasn't made by disabled people so of course they're going to get it wrong. I would also share that in my position at the Guild, I've met with execs who have said, “What should I disclose about myself? Because I have a disability. I just haven't shared it.” And those are conversations that I'm not equipped to have because my disability is pretty evident. You can't see it on screen, but I'm in a wheelchair all the time so the question of disclosure isn't a question that I can answer and it's one that I hesitate to ask of folks here to talk about because it's such a personal choice. But more and more people because of COVID or otherwise or accident or illness or age are going to be disabled. What are some strategies, broadly, for making that known? Is it something that should be encouraged?
Linda: I know, again, it's such a personal thing, right? I've 100% not checked the disability box before in fear of repercussions. I will say, from an executive point of view, we are looking for new stories. We're looking for new points of view. We are looking for voices that we have not heard before. And I always, every time I talk to an agent, always remind them I'm also looking for specifically, right now, I really would love to do a show about a kid that's a neurodivergent, if they're on the spectrum or whatnot because I have a nephew who's on the spectrum and so I'd love to be able to do a show for him. So I specifically bring that up every time I talk to an agent and they always have to say “Hmm.” And so part of that is them finding more writers to disclose but it's a personal decision. I think more and more people are looking for voices that we haven't heard from before and so as long as you're a good writer, I want that point of view.
David: [01:05:55] I think that's a great place to end our conversation and encourage everybody out there to make their voices heard in whatever storytelling form they choose and connect with places like Nickelodeon because it sounds like there's a real hunger for that sort of content and a real openness to these discussions. So thank you so much, everybody. Thanks to the Inevitable Foundation for collaborating on this. I could have gone for another hour with you folks. This was a lot of fun. So I hope to see you all soon and stay creative, everyone. Stay safe and we'll see you at the next event.